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PopMatters
Azrael, DC’s angel of vengeance, becomes a man of peace in Waters & Cizmesjia series
Sword of Azrael’s Dan Watters & Nikola Čižmešija talk Jean-Paul Valley’s faith… and theirs
Interview by Grant DeArmitt

DC’s Jean-Paul Valley has been many things in the 30 years of his existence. He’s been an avenging angel, an Arrowverse vigilante, and a brainwashed cultist. Heck, he’s even been the G-D- Batman. But of all the mantles Azrael has taken on, he’s never been a man of peace. Until now.

In the Sword of Azrael, DC’s latest miniseries to focus on the titular character, Jean-Paul Valley has renounced his life of bloodlust and withdrawn to a remote monastery. Ahead of the comic’s first issue, PopVerse spoke to series artist Nikola Čižmešija and series writer Dan Watters about Azrael’s journey toward peace… and the violence that won’t leave him.

Popverse: Nikola, tell me about creating the monastery on Ioúdas Island, where Jean-Paul is spending his days. What inspired you? What emotions do you want the scenery to invoke in a reader?
Nikola Čižmešija: Our monastery in the comic was inspired by monasteries of Mount Athos in Greece. Dan shared some ideas with me and I immediately fell in love with the image of a lonely monastery on the edge of a cliff, surrounded by sea. Unfortunately, I’ve never been to Greece, but I visited some lovely islands and cities on the coastline of my country, Croatia. From what I’ve seen, they invoke a similar feeling of peace and relaxation. So that was my main inspiration, to make the readers feel the sea breeze as they were going through the pages.

You’ve definitely succeeded in doing that. Dan, Jean-Paul starts off this comic by reciting Catholic saints that have been killed in horrific ways. Why are they on his mind so much?
Dan Watters:He’s wondering that too! Pain is a huge part of the imagery and ethos of Catholicism, and as someone who has both endured and inflicted more than his share, this is a big thing playing on his mind. Is it a path to redemption, or a cycle without meaning? Or could the latter even become the former? That’s kind of what he’s going to be grappling with over the course of this story. While hitting things with a big flaming sword.

Of course, can’t forget the sword. Speaking of Catholicism, Nikola, talk to me about utilizing Catholic imagery to tell this story. Did you or anyone you know grow up Catholic? How are you choosing what Catholic iconography makes it into the comic?
Čižmešija: I was raised in a Catholic family, so I’m no stranger to the subject [laughs]. Apart from that, a big help for coming up with the imagery was my education at college. I majored in art history, so classes like Iconography and Gothic Art and Architecture helped me convey Dan’s words into visual form. Plus, Dan was really detailed with the script, so that made it easier as well!

In that script, Dan, you bring up the Christian mystic Margery Kempe. Who is Kempe, and what does she have to do with Azrael?
Watters:Margery Kempe was an English mystic who dictated the earliest autobiography in the English language we know of. She had visions and conversations with God – and with demons, who even tried to drive her to suicide. She’d almost certainly have been considered mentally ill in today’s world, but in hers, she became a preacher, traveled the world, and was heard – and is remembered – in a way that she certainly wouldn’t have been otherwise. The idea that she took something so potentially dark, and through faith and will transformed it into something else, is really interesting to me. I thought it’d be very interesting to Jean-Paul, too. There are definitely some elements that rhyme there with his story so far.

Nikola, since we’re on the subject of inner darkness, one of the (many) interesting things this comic does is split Jean-Paul and Azrael into different personalities. How do you convey this in how you draw the characters?
Čižmešija:In my eyes, I see Jean-Paul and Azrael as Yin and Yang. With my take on the character, I’m trying to make Jean-Paul a gentle person. He should be smiling every time he gets a chance, but he’s also no stranger to conflict and defending people. While drawing him for the first time in our short Batman: Urban Legends run, I discovered that glasses are also a great way to act out emotions by showing and hiding the eyes. As for Azrael, he is much more aggressive and dark. So when he does come out, to me it’s like he stops being a man and becomes more of a force, an instrument of God. He becomes more firm and fiery.

Firm and fiery, I love that. Dan, we know that the “Instrument of God” side of Azrael views the world very negatively, as a thing in need of punishment. But what about the human side? How does Jean-Paul Valley view the world outside the monastery, and humanity in general?
Watters:More than anything, Jean-Paul wants to be a good man. He hasn’t hidden himself from the world because he’s afraid of it, but because he’s afraid of himself – of Azrael – and what happens when he spirals out of control, as he has a nasty habit of doing.

Alright, I want to briefly take a step back from the story and talk about this book’s creation. Nikola, what does your collaboration with colorist Marissa Louise look like? What do Marissa’s colors bring to the book?
Čižmešija:She’s my dancing partner! I love working with her and every new page is a joy! We talked about our inspirations and brainstormed some references to find the visual direction for this book before starting it, and I think we nailed it. I have a few notes here and there with how I imagined a certain scene but, other than that, it’s like she’s reading my mind. What do Marissa’s colors bring to the book? Magic! They complement the mood and elevate the atmosphere of the page to its highest potential.

What a lovely thing to say. Dan, on a similar note, talk to me about working with letterer Hassan Otsmane-Elhaou. What about Hass’s work elevates Sword of Azrael?
Watters:Hass is one of the most inventive letterers in the business, something which a book like this honestly needs. There’s a lot of interplay between Azrael’s voice and Jean-Paul’s – overlapping captions, enochian symbols in balloons, all sorts of stuff – so it’s definitely a relief when writing them to know there’s someone there who will enjoy those sort of ideas, rather than drive to my house and throttle me.

[Laughs] Fair enough. Now, let’s get back to the story. Nikola, without spoiling anything, I’ll say that Azrael does not escape his past. Destiny, maybe even doom, is a big theme in this book. Would you call Jean-Paul a doomed character? And if so, how does that affect how you’re visually telling his story?
Čižmešija:Jean-Paul is a cursed character. He never wanted to be Azrael and go down the path of murder and violence. We took a lot of inspiration from the manga Berserk, so there is that. But there is always a way to find light in the darkness. For Jean-Paul, it’s his faith and the will to be better. For this book, I started using heavier shadows compared to my previous work, in order to keep the light parts brighter and in the forefront.

I see. That’s great that you mention his faith, because this book is also largely about a crisis of faith. Dan, are you pulling from your personal experience? What about your thoughts on belief makes it into this comic?
Watters:Maybe my personal interest, rather than experience. I honestly didn’t realize how preoccupied I was with faith until I started writing regularly, and it kept becoming a theme in my work – here with Azrael, but also in books like Coffin Bound and Lucifer. I’m interested in where faith comes from, and the things it drives us to do and create. These are the filters through which we try and make sense of our world, and find beauty and meaning in it. Catholicism is the lens my upbringing gave me to look at that through, so I tend to gravitate there in the work, too.

Very interesting. Alright, this last question is for both of you. Let’s say DC decides to greenlight an Azrael ongoing series after this miniseries concludes. What would you want it to look like? What pieces of this miniseries would you want to carry over into it?

Čižmešija:For me, it has to be the darker tone of the book. I don’t know how much I can say without spoiling anything but definitely the darker tone. Again, we took a lot of inspiration from Berserk, so struggle is a big part of it; the demon inside Jean-Paul and the demons outside. Along with the darker tone, I’d want the message of Azrael to remain; that despite his inner demons and the ‘cursed’ nature of his character, there is always a shimmer of light inside, pushing him to be a better and truer version of himself.

Watters: I enjoy the hell out of working with Nikola, so more of that, please. And there’s plenty more to be done and explored with Azrael. He occupies a unique place in the DCU; there are a lot of different facets of faith – organized and otherwise – which he can be used to explore.

Or hit with a big flaming sword, depending on which side of the bed he’s gotten up on.

Sword of Azrael (Volume 2)
Issue No. 1 – August 2022
Say Your Prayers
Jean-Paul Valley does not want to be Azrael ever again. All it has brought him is pain, violence, and misery. He has sequestered himself away at a monastery in Europe to find peace. But when a young woman who claims to have the same System programming that made Jean-Paul into Azrael arrives at the monastery, he won’t have a choice but to don his violent mantle of Azrael once more to protect her from the deadly assassins who wish her harm.

Sword of Azrael (Volume 2)
Issue No. 2 – September 2022
Title TBA
Vengeance has arrived to capture Brielle, the young woman who has come to Azrael for help, but Azrael won’t let this stand. He will fight back against Vengeance and her forces…but will he be able to keep the murderous programming of the System at bay? And is Brielle all she seems, or is she hiding secrets that could shatter Jean-Paul Valley forever? All this as Azrael’s foe the Poor Fellow pulls the strings…

Batman: Urban Legends
Issue No. 8 – October 2021
Dark Knight of the Soul – Part 1
Azrael, the last acolyte of the Order of St. Dumas, has returned to the streets of Gotham City after serving with the Justice League in the stars. He’s convinced he’s strayed too far from his purpose, too far from his teachings, and needs to reassert himself. But he’ll be met with a city that’s changed forever, a city that will shake his faith.

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Urban Legends
Issue No. 9 – November 2021
Dark Knight of the Soul – Part 2
Dead criminals are walking the streets of Gotham City, and Azrael’s faith is shaken. Is the rapture truly upon us, and will this avenging angel be called home? Or is there a more sinister and human force at work, and what warrior has been stalking Jean-Paul Valley without him noticing? Threats to Azrael’s body and soul are here, and he’ll need more than a flaming sword to stop them.

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Urban Legends
Issue No. 10 – December 2021
Dark Knight of the Soul – Part 3
In his return to Gotham City, Jean-Paul Valley faces off for a final time with the new villain Poor Fellow, who has a lot more to tell Jean-Paul about the legacy of Azrael than he ever knew.

Legends of the Dark Knight (Digital)
Issue No. 13 – June 2021
Catechism: Part 1
CATCEISM BEGINS! Batman heads to Rome to stop Ra’s Al Ghul and the Leage of Assassins from getting their hands on an ancient artifact that they want to use to exacerbate the power of the Lazarus Pits. What Batman doesn’t know is that the artifact is already under the protection of the Order of St. Dumas, specifically, AZRAEL! From the creative team of Critically Acclaimed Writer Brandon Easton and rising star artist Karl Mostert!

 

 

 

 

 

Legends of the Dark Knight (Digital)
Issue No. 14 – July 2021
Catechism: Part 2
CATECHISM FINALE! Instead of fighting each other, Batman and Azrael will need to pool their resources to stop the might of Ra’s Al Ghul and the League of Assassins from getting away with the Vessell of St. Januarius!

Batman: The Adventures Continue (Season 1)
Issue No. 7 – July 2020
The Darker Knight – Part 1
The Knight of St. Dumas, Azrael, arrives in Gotham and he’s burning through the city in search of something stolen from the Church. Can Batman wrangle the aggressive vigilante or will his flaming sword pierce the Dark Knight?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman; The Adventures Continue (Season 1)
Issue No. 8 – July 2020
The Darker Knight – Part 2
After nearly killing Penguin, Azrael races to find the person who stole from the Church of St. Dumas. Batman, however, won’t allow Azrael to use such aggressive methods. Who will be left standing when the Dark Knight faces the burning vengeance of St. Dumas?!

Tales from the Dark Multiverse – Batman: Knightfall
Issue No.1 – October 2019
Knightfall
Thirty years after Bruce Wayne was broken and failed to take back the mantle of the Bat, Jean-Paul Valley, now known as Saint Batman, has turned Gotham into the city of his dreams. In his new order, killing has become commonplace and criminals live in constant fear-all in the name of justice. But just when all seems lost, a new hope for Gotham City rises…the son of Bane! With the help of a tortured Bruce Wayne, Bane gets the help he needs to turn the tables in the Batcave, only to be double-crossed by Wayne himself in a plan years in the making!

The Convergence story line stars heroes from the ‘Zero Hour’ arc under the banner of the
‘Batman: Shadow of the Bat’ title, each with a variant cover.

 

Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Issue No. 1 – June 2015
The Dark Side of the Street
With the people of Metropolis trapped under a dome, Bruce Wayne decides to go under cover in hopes to work for the crime boss Tobias Whale. Little does he know that Jean Paul had the same idea and is currently working as Whale’s hired muscle under the assumed name, ‘Johnny Valli.’ As a sort of initiation, ‘Valli’ must give Bruce a brutal beating before joining up.
Bruce and Valli then pay Councilman Hall a visit with Bruce under the orders to murder Hall. Days later the duo are in their batsuits working to hijack Whale’s plans. After knocking Whale unconscious the two batman come to odds in their differing ways of achieving their goals. Bruce then feels a shift in time and reality.

 

Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Issue No 2 – July 2015
Home is the Sailor
The Wetworks team is on a mission as the city’s champions and are on the hunt for Batman and Azrael. If the duo beat Wetworks however, the inhabitants of the aircrat carrier will be killed.
In the end Azrael strikes up a deal for Batman and Wetworks to team-up in an effort to break down the dome and unite with the heroes on the outside.
Azrael has other plans though and decides to stay with the people of the aircraft city to be their defender.

 

Detective Comics
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 667 – October 1993
Wild, Wild East
It’s official, Jean Paul is now the Batman and taking to the mean streets of Gotham. However, getting bored with common criminals, he starts to tweak his suit and uncovers one of Harold’s creations, the subway rocket! This new vehicle uses long abandoned Gotham City sudway roads that date back to a literal underground railroad connected throughout the city.  Meanwhile the Trigger Twins come to town and join a local mob ring.

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 668 – November 1993
Runaway
Still new to the subway rocket, JPV almost gets into a head-on collision with an actual train while trying to stop the Trigger Twins from robbing a money train! Due to his father’s condition, Tim is able to receive his license early and heads down to the batcave to pick up a car that was promised to him by Bruce. Showing up in his Robin uniform he has an altercation with Jean Paul who informs him that this Batman does not need a partner. Almost strangled to death, Robin escapes Jean Paul and is locked out of the cave.

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 19 – October 1993
The Tally Man: Part One
After handling some routing street crime, Batman sees a building with isolation chambers and decides to try one out, wondering if it may help him discover more about himself. Across town the Tally Man is collecting life debts. One of his trails leads him to the warehouse district Batman is at and decides he may as well take out the new dark Knight as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 20 – November 1993
The Tally Man: Part Two
With both Batman and the Tally Man dealing with the effects of the isolation chamber, they  attle their minds and each other. Thanks to a falling water tower and the system kicking in, Batman is able to take down the Tally Man, beating him inches away from death before leaving him for the police to take over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 501 – November 1993
Codename: Mekros
Batman gets a vision from St Dumas, telling him he must continue his crusade as Gotham’s dark angel. After breaking up a mob meeting, the bosses get together and hire a former government agent to down Batman. After a meeting Commissioner Gordon notices that something is very different about Batman.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 502 – December 1993
Phoenix In Chaos
Batman survives his first formidable encounter and defeats both Mekros, as well as anothet hisman who was hired to take out Mekros. Batman goes on to form an unlikely alliance with Mayor Krol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 669 – December 1993
Town Tamer
The Trigger Twins are back again, this time they have hijacked the Public Transit Authority System’s train that collects all money from public transportation. Batman chases down the stolen train and brings them in to justice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightquest – The Crusade (Mislabeled as part of ‘The Search’
Issue No 670 – January 1994
Cold Cases
The body of Mr. Freeze washes up on shore from his last encounter with the Joker. He is brought into the Gotham City morgue by Bullock and Montoya when it is thawed out, temporarily bringing Freeze back to life. Batman and Montoya take down Freeze, but she is left shaken after witnessing the brutality of Batman.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Catwoman
Knightquest – The Crusade (Mislabeled as part of ‘The Search’
Issue No 6 – January 1994
Animal Rites
Catwoman and a group of animal rights activists set out to stop a group of corporate developers who have developed a neurotoxin to be rid of protected species. The notes for this toxin are stolen and must be acquired.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 503 – January 1994
Night Becomes Woman
Believing that Catwoman is the thief of the Xylon-C neurotoxin, he tracks down and encounters her, only to find that she can very easily tell via pheromone that he is not the Batman she has faced all these years. While in the Batcave, Jean Paul researches her through the files Bruce kept in the batcomputer, trying to figure out why she has gone free all these years. He also wrestles with ‘thoughts’ of her.

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 504 – February 1994
Dark Dance
Jean Paul has another vision of St. Dumas while he chases Catwoman. The Gotham PD find Catwoman with the canister of the Xylon-C neurotoxin, believing her to be involved in terrorism as the docks catch fire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Catwoman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 7 – February 1994
Body Chemistry
Catwoman escapes the police and displays that what she has is in fact a decor. With Batman’s help, they rescue the scientist who initially concocted the toxin and save the attendees of an international conference from being poisoned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 671 – February 1994
The Cutting Room Floor
The Joker forces Hollywood big wigs to fund his movie, ‘The Death of Batman,’ and begins to stage crimes to get footage of Batman in action. While checking on a mugging victim, Batman witnesses her falling to her demise from a window.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 672 – March 1994
Smash Cut
Batman moves into  save Robin who turns out to be the mugging victim he saved the previous night dressed up as Robin as part of one of his staged acts for his film. Captured by the Joker, the Gotham PD decide to step in after receiving a poster for Joker’s film in progress.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 673 – April 1994
Losing The Light
Chained into a situation he can’t quite get his way out of, Batman wrestles with himself and the demons of the system. Watching batman’s actions, the Joker is infuriated when he comes to the realization that this is not the Batman he has faced all of these years. Once Batman breaks free it takes the Gotham PD to stop him from permanently taking the Joker out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 505 – March 1994
Blood Kin
Jean Paul begins to embrace the detective side of Batman as he investigates a murder scene and begins to have a vision of St. Dumas and his father battling over the direction of his life. The murderer Abattoir kills five members of his family and is now going after his cousin and a bus full of children. This encounter sees Jean Paul redesigning his cape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 26 – April 1994
Creatures of Clay – Diary of a Lover
While checking in on the survivors of Abattoir’s school bus attack, Batman is attacked by Lady Clayface who begrudgingly wants to kill him. Meanwhile, Clayface III kidnaps Abattoirs cousin, Graham Etchison, who is being counseled by Leslie Thompkins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 27 – May 1994
Creatures of Clay – Child’s Play
After being defeated by Batman, Lady Clayface reveals that she is only going to these measures because Abbatoir has kidnapped her and her lover’s child. Batman instead meets at the rendezvous point to save the baby and brings Clayface III to justice. Abbatoir however escapes and straps Graham Etchison to the death machine while Batman wonders if this baby will turn out as its parents did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 506 – April 1994
Malevolent Maniax
Batman joins Ballistic who comes into town under contract to kill Abbatoir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightquest – The Crusade
Issue No 507  – May 1994
Ballistic
Also in town on contract to take down Abbatoir, Batman and Ballistic take down the Maniaxe in a Gotham city nightclub. After taking out the lawyer who set the contract in motion, Ballistic collects his fee and leaves town.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightfall Part 12
Issue No 664 – July 1993
Who Rules The Night
To prove supremacy, Bane takes Batman’s unconscious body into the heart of Gotham and throws him from a roof into the town square for all to see. Disguised as medics, Alfred, Tim and Jean Paul arrive at the scene in an ambulance to take Batman back to the cave to stabilize him. Robin calls in a favor from Commissioner Gordon for medication to aid in Bruce’s condition. Meanwhile upon hearing the news about Batman Joker sees no need to work with Scarecrow anymore and turns on him.

 

 

 

 

Showcase ’93
Knightfall Part 13
Issue No 7 – July 1993
Face 2 Face Part 1 – Double Cross
As Alfred and Robin look after Bruce, Robin recounts an event a few weeks prior where he felt just as helpless when Two-Face returned to Gotham. While investigating, Batman is set up and a bridge is blown, sending the Batmobile into the river.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Showcase ’93
Knightfall Part 14
Issue No 8 – August 1993
Face 2 Face Part 2 – Bad Judgement
An exhausted Batman is captured by Two-Face as his body is fished out of the river. Batman is brought to the original Gotham City Municipal Courthouse where the trial that scarred him, turning him into Two-Face occurred. Robin is able to figure out where Batman is taken and crashes the party, enabling Batman to gain the upperhand and initialy saves Two-Face from falling from the building after a bad decision made by Robin. Meanwhile Batman begins to become conscious.

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightfall Part 15
Issue 498 – August 1993
Knights In Darkness
With Batman out of commission, Bane begins to attack and absorb gangs in Gotham as well as capture Catwoman and want her to pay tribute to him.  and Tim create a mock car wreck and ask Dr. Shondra Kinsolving to be Bruce’s personal Doctor in aiding in his recovery. Bruce asks Tim to go to Jean Paul and ask him to become Batman with the explicit instructions not to go after Bane. The duo meet Comissioner Gordon letting him know that the Batman may be injured but is not out of the game just yet and will make Bane pay.

 

 

 

 

 

Shadow Of The Bat
Knightfall (Interlude)
Issue No 16 – September 1993
The God of Fear – Part 1
Note: Though not a numbered issue of the Knightsaga, this issue is considered a part of it due to being a mission with Jean Paul as Batman prior to batsuit modifications. Scarecrow uses his fear toxin to get a group of Gotham University students and staff. Meanwhile Anarky escapes believing that Batman is the cause of the city’s problems and must be stopped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shadow Of The Bat
Knightfall (Interlude)
Issue No 17 – September 1993
The God of Fear – Part 2
Discovering that one of the students is the son of the first man that he ever killed, Scarecrow uses him as a special part of his plan. At 10 at night, the Scarecrow has the students release his fear toxin throughout the city and claims himself the ‘God of Fear.’ In discovering Scarecrow’s plans, Anarky devises a plan to ry and take down both Scarecrow and Batman at once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shadow Of The Bat
Knightfall (Interlude)
Issue No 17 – September 1993
The God of Fear – Part 3
With both Batman and Anarky after him, Scarecrow gives the people of Gotham City 2 hours to declare him the ‘God of Fear.’ Being caught on a rooftop, Scarecrow throws the student over the building as bait; Anarky saves him while Batman goes after Scarecrow who is able to overcome his fear toxin. He ten lets Anarky know that next time they meet he will kill him for standing in his way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightfall Part 16
Issue No 498 – August 1993
Lightning Changes
With the city in chaos, Robin and Jean Paul as Batman go into the city to start breaking up street crimes and make the presence of Batman known. Jean Paul begins to go a bit too far with his brand of justice and is reminded that Batman does not go the way of brutality. Robin sticks by Jean Paul to keep an eye on him deciding against telling Bruce. Batman shakes down ‘Tough Tony’ Bressi to get a lead on Bane. Meanwhile Bruce pays Dr. Kinsolving a visit next door at Jack Drake’s home where he witnesses her being kidnapped. In trying to stop it, Bruce is further injured.

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightfall – Part 17
Issue 499 – September 1993
The Venom Connection
Bruce and Alfred ready for a trip to Santa Prisca to rescue the kidnapped Dr. Kinsolving and Jack Drake. Bruce tells Jean Paul to keep up the good work while he is gone. While in flight, Bruce and Alfred discover that Selina Kyle has stowed away on the Wayne jet. After taking down some of Bane’s men, Jean Paul returns to the cave and designs new gauntlets as an addition to the costume to become tougher.

 

 

 

 

 

Detective Comics
Knightfall – Part 18
Issue No 666 – September 1993
The Devil You Know
With Bane’s men in custody, Batman devises a plan to find where Bane is hiding out. Batman breaks out Bane’s main henchman – Zombie, Trogg and Bird, leading them to believe that Bane helped them escape. He follows them to the hideout to encounter Bane, not realizing Bane is ready for him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Batman
Knightfall – Part 19
Issue No 500 – October 1993
Dark Angel
Note: This issue was released with two covers, the newstand version (Shown to the left), and a foil die-cut variant, seen in black and white below.
Showing supremacy over ‘the imposter,’ Bane dangles the new Batman over a building in the same square where he threw Bruce. Batman is able to overcome serious injury from the fall but blames the suit for his failed encounter. Allowing ‘The System’ to take over, Jean Paul designs a new batsuit that he feels will be better suited for him over the classic batsuit. Meanwhile Nightwing meets with Robin to discover Bruce gone and Jean Paul as the new Batman, wondering why he was not asked to stand in.
In the second part of the story, Jean Paul is now clad in his new batsuit and ready to take down Bane, publicly. As the police watch, Mayor Krol intervenes and asks the police to stand down and let Batman take care of Bane. The battle ensues throughout Gotham until Jean Paul discovers Bane’s weakness is his dependency on Venom. Once he shuts that off, he unleashes his new suits full arsenal on him, leaving Bane begging Batman to take his life as he declares him the real Batman. Robin also congratulates Jean Paul, letting him know he has earned the right to be Batman now before heading off into the night.

Previews Magazine
October 1994
Volume IV, No 10

DC’s Killer Angel

Dennis O’Neil is doing monthly comics again after doing them for over 25 years. As usual, he’s handing the editorial chores over to long-time friend and co-worker Archie Goodwin, and teaming with artist Barry Kitson on Azrael – a new ongoing monthly that will shed plenty of light on yet another dark and fascinating corner of the Batman mythos.

Interview by Michael R. Smith

“If man’s an angel,” ruminates a character in The Killer Angel, Michael Shaara’s Pulitzer Prize-Winning account of the battle of Gettysburg, “Then sure, he’s a murderin’ angel.” What Shaara applied metaphorically to the whole human race is literally true for Azrael, the avenging angel of the Order of St. Dumas, first introduced two years ago in DC’s Sword of Azrael miniseries. Then, he was a brutal and remorseless assassin conditioned from birth to serve as the Order’s defender and all-around hitman. At the time, DC couldn’t reveal just how important Azrael would be to the future of everyone’s favorite Dark Knight detective, but the book was a sensation, anyway, due in large part to the strength and execution of the story and the exceptional artwork of Joe Quesada and Kevin Nowlan.

As with that project, reader’s will once again find Dennis O’Neil’s name on the splash page of Azrael, an all-new, ongoing monthly that DC will add to its Batman family of titles this December. O’Neil – THE MAN when it comes to any and all things Batman, is bringing plenty of things to the project: an understanding of the mythological underpinnings of superhero comics; an abiding love for rough-and-tumble action scenes; and the enduring command of narrative craft that can only emerge from three decades in the comic book business. He’s been described as ‘Heavy’ by his co-workers-which is ironic for a slight, introspective man with a deep commitment to pacifism and vegetarianism. But like most comic book writers, he strikes an agreeable balance between intellect and instinct; between the desire to bring depth to a work, and the action-intensive requirements of the form. Azrael clearly demands both.

Last June, we spoke about Denny about “Knightfall,” the landmark storyline that re-introduced readers to Jean Paul Valley: the bland, slightly befuddled young man who would later become the heir to Batman’s mantle as protector of Gotham City. Since then, Bruce and Jean Paul have endured the worst-and Denny has been there every step of the way. In a recent telephone conversation, he shared with us his plans for Azrael – what he’s calling the “grandest paranoid dream” ever attempted in comics. Coming from the man who created Ras Al Ghul, we tend to believe it.

Looking back, was Knightfall a success, in whatever way you define that word?
Definitely. In fact, I think it was more of a success than it’s being given credit for. It was, without a question, a commercial success. But we also tried to do some fairly difficult things with the story, and I am not aware of any failures. I mean, nobody has written me a letter shooting the whole thing full of holes. There is one criticism that really irks me though, which I’ve seen twice in print. Basically, it says that Azrael was a ‘trial balloon,’ to see whether or not the audience would accept a tougher, meaner Batman. Of course, if you simply read the stories and have some working knowledge of how things are put together – that is of how far ahead we have to plan…well, I think it’s pretty clear that Azrael could never have been created for that purpose. The whole thing had been plotted out well in advance. In the end, it was precisely what we wanted it to be: a 70+ grand, graphic novel that explored the theme of what a hero is in the ‘90’s.
So, no regrets but neither do I want to do something like it again any time in the near future. Professionally, it was the toughest two years of my life. I’m delighted that we tried it. I also feel like a tremendous weight has been lifted because the other editors and I have been living in fear that we’d somehow missed something – some crucial flaw that would deconstruct the whole damn thing. So far, that hasn’t happened.

How would you characterize the fundamental differences between Batman and Azrael, or between Bruce and Jean Paul if that makes a difference? Bruce is very aware of what he is and how that contributes to what he does. He is not moved by internal or external forces that he doesn’t already understand. Jean Paul on the other hand, has virtually no idea who he really is. He is, in the worst possible way, ignorant. Think about it: he had a rotten childhood he can barely remember; conversely, Bruce remembers his childhood, which was, up until that one critical moment, a very happy and privileged one – all too well. So they are at extremely opposite ends of the psychological spectrum.
Some critics and writers have accused Batman of being insane. But I’ve never seen it that way, precisely because of that element of self-awareness. He’s a guy who’s made a choice to let the results of a severe childhood trauma govern his life. But in our reading of the mythos, he could, and probably will, stop at some time. The difference of course, is that someone who is compulsive has no control over his actions. Batman is not deranged. Jean Paul may very well be, on some level. We also saw him manifest some classic symptoms of mental imbalance: hearing voices and seeing things that aren’t there. If anything, he’s delusional.

You’ve said that your working model for this new series is Arthurian lore, particularly the quests. Is that what Azrael is looking for: himself?
Precisely.  That is his grail. In our first Azrael story arc, Jean Paul will discover the truth about himself. Then, with his identity firmly established in his own mind, we’ll see about getting him some control over his powers. He’ll finally be able to use those powers; right now, they’re using him. I expect that the initial arc will run six or seven issues.

But if nearly all of the living members of the Order of St. Dumas were killed by Biis in Sword of Azrael, how is Jean Paull going to learn anything about it or his relationship to it?
Well, for one thing, don’t be sure that Biis wiped out the Order. As we’ll learn in the new series, the Order of St. Dumas is a VERY secret organization. There’s much more to it than what was revealed in Sword of Azrael, and learning those secrets is part of Jean Paul’s mission. In Sword of Azrael, the Order was more of a plot device than anything else. But in the new series, I’m exploring it more thoroughly. It turns out that the Order is more powerful than anyone imagined because it has been able to manipulate history. Take science for example: In Azrael we’ll learn that alchemy actually works, but that the Order suppressed that information some time during the 16^th century so that only they could use it.

Did you base the Order on any historical antecedent?
Very loosely. The Knights Templar – a 14^th century group of celibate warriors who became very rich during the Crusades is about as close as you’ll get. The Knights Templar provided Dashiell Hammett with the Maltese Falcon: it was supposed to have been a bird that the Templars created to send to the Pope. In our reading of the story we’ll also use the Knights as a point of departure. The Order of St. Dumas is, for us, a splinter group of the Knights Templar, which is led by a raving lunatic called Dumas. At one point he declares himself a Saint. The Pope gently reminds Dumas, by way of emissaries, that he can’t be a Saint, if for no other reason than that Saints are customarily dead. So Dumas kills the messengers. At that point he really goes off the deep end and splits violently with any existing religious order or church. He sets up his own church, and it’s one fundamental tenant is absolute secrecy. That’s why Azrael exists: it’s a hereditary position dedicated to killing anybody who may betray the existence of the Order. Still, in the course of six centuries information has escaped. Certain people know or suspect something about it.

Sounds more like the Illuminati than a group of monks.
Good analogy. The Illuminati is in the back of my mind, in fact in one of the early issues of Azrael, a character refers to the fact that the Illuminati was yet another blind alley created by the Order to divert attention away from themselves. In a sense, the Order is the ultimate secret society.

How do Bruce, Alfred, and Tim factor into all of this?
Bruce functions as the herald. In the first story, he realizes that his treatment of Jean Paul after the whole Knightfall affair was a monumental blunder. At the end of Legends of the Dark Knight issue 63, Bruce just sends this hapless, mixed up kid on his own merry way. I wrote it that way for maximum drama. But logically, it was pretty rotten of Bruce to treat him so cavalierly. So in Azrael, Bruce tries to make good with Jean Paul by equipping him for the quest. What he says is, “Look, Jean Paul, I’m Bruce Wayne, one of the richest men in the world, and the world’s greatest detective. I’ve learned some things about the Order of St. Dumas. Here’s where I think they’re headquartered, and here’s a couple of million bucks to get you started.”
In other words, Azrael is a Batman continuity book in the same way that Robin and Catwoman are. Our first story begins in Gotham, where we find that Jean Paul is a lost, wondering soul without hope or direction. Occasionally, he’ll black out, and when he comes out of it he discovers that he’s beaten up three muggers. He can do spectacular things, but he can barely remember that he was Batman.

In the Sword of Azrael miniseries, you seemed to be playing with the relationship between fate and providence; between rationalism (everything has a natural, scientific explanation) and the life of faith (it is the will of God). In what ways will the new Azrael series explore these same kinds of theological questions?
The semantics of this are tricky, because I am not a lampooning, satirizing, or in any way criticizing religion. After all, my wife teaches religion in Catholic school; one of my assistants is a devout Jew, and the other two are devout Catholics. So yes, there is a religious dimension to Azrael, if by religion you mean things like rituals, traditions, and those kinds of things. I see no reason not incorporate some of that into the comic book. But I’m not in the business of insulting people, and if I were to mount a screed against some faith or aspect of what religion has become, I probably wouldn’t do it in a comic book. Instead, what I do is use some elements of traditional religion as story components. Hopefully, I’ll succeed in sending signals to my readers that this book is not about Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, Mohammedanism, or any specific faith. What will emerge in the stories are things that are common to most religions. Grail mythology, which is closely tied to religion is my starting point, but I would also like to work something in about angels into the mix because Azrael is, in two near eastern religions, an avenging angel.

So there is a historical analog for Azrael’s name?
Sure. Look it up in any dictionary of mythology. He’s an avenging angel in Mohammedanism and Judaism. After all, he was created to be the ‘anti-Batman.’ With that in mind, I set out to find a natural adversary for the bat in the animal kingdom. Unfortunately, there aren’t many. Bats are actually very benevolent creatures. All I could come up with two: Owls (but there had already been an Owl-Man, and Owls had the wrong vibe anyways) and man (but ‘Man-Man’ just doesn’t sing as a superhero). Finally, I came across Azrael-maybe in Funk and Wagnall’s Encyclopedia of mythology. It was, in the end, precisely what we were looking for.

There seems to be a tendency in popular fiction-comics or non- to fall into the same old traps when treating theological/supernatural material: corrupt priests, impure nuns, greedy televangelists, etc…
Lately, that does seem to be true. Back in the early seventies, it was true that by putting a clerical character into a story you were taking a great chance. I guess that comics back then were still very much under the influence of fifties era editorial policies. Any authority figure of any stripe was automatically a cross between Mahatma Gandhi, the Buddha, and Jesus Christ. Now; and this may be my age speaking, the pendulum does seem to have swung too far into the other direction. I’ve been as guilty of it as anybody. Protestant ministers have approached me at conventions and said, “Well, if you find a Protestant Minister in your comics these days you know who the bad guys are going to be.” Some stuff that I’ve read recently seems to be taking gratuitous shots at the Catholic clergy. The negatives of organized religion; the evil that it has done, as well as the good, is a topic that I will willingly discuss at any time, and at length, with anyone who is interested. My wife and I have had hundreds of discussions about it over the years, but that’s an entirely different thing than taking cheap shots in comic books. That’s not my style.

Still, John Ostrander seems to avoid it in the Spectre, and you in Sword of Azrael. What’s the secret?
Maybe it’s because John and I co-teach the same comics writing class.  John and I vibrate in synch and agree on all sorts of things, which is why we’re teaching the course at SVA (the School of Visual Arts on 23^rd Street in Manhattan: Will Eisner, Walt Simonson, Carmine Infantino, and Claus Janson, among others, all teach courses there).

Speaking of your colleagues: how would you describe your working relationship with Archie Goodwin who is editing the new series? Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you both ‘come up’ together?
Archie’s been in this racket a year or two longer than I have. I’m very grateful for his presence at this company, because without him, I’d be the oldest editor at DC Comics. Our working relationship is about as good as it gets. I trust him unequivocally-but that doesn’t mean that he gets away with murder. On at least one recent project, he demanded more re-writing then I am used to doing, and thank God for it. He’s an incredible backstop for the creative people, and that’s what great editors do: curb our excesses, catch our mistakes, and provide a sounding board.
I’d been in the business about five years before I met Archie. We were both at Marvel during the mid-sixties. Years later I was a superhero editor at Marvel while Archie was in charge of their Epic line. Still, we weren’t quite colleagues. But since we’ve both come back to DC we’ve had this reciprocal arrangement. Sometimes I’ll edit Archie’s work, and vice-versa. I have unqualified respect for Archie and his skills. He’s one of the best, and I’m glad that he’s here to moderate some of my more radical ideas in Azrael.

What powers, beyond those we’ve already seen in Knightfall, will Azrael manifest in the new series?
Think of the ultimate Hong Kong martial arts hero-you know, the guys in the Jackie Chan action movies or in movies like Once Upon A Time In China, who do stuff that even Batman can’t do. That’s what we’re shooting for with Azrael’s powers: the extreme, upper-most level of what is possible for a human being. He’s not super-human, but in a way, he’s close.

So all of this talk about theology and medieval history aside, Azrael is still a kick ass action book.
That’s why people read superhero comics! After all these years I can still respond to that stuff. As I said in the afterword to the Knightfall Graphic Novel, I don’t feel at all demeaned by writing action-oriented superhero comic books. It’s good, solid entertainment, and not the easiest thing in the world to do well. There’s a phrase of James Agee’s that I keep coming back to: the very difficult job of being ‘merely entertaining.” I do need to emphasize, because we sometimes sound very intellectual when we have these discussions, that that’s all that I’m interested in doing. Insofar as I use mythology and theology, I use it to better tell the most entertaining stories that I can.

Of all that you’ve written, which is your favorite Batman story?
That’s a tough one. As a job of story construction, I think that, ‘A Vow from the Grave,’ drawn by Neal Adams and Dick Giordano, from Detective Comics, was one of my best. It’s the only time that I’ve ever been satisfied with a detective story written by me for a Batman comic book. It plays absolutely fair with the reader. All he clues are there, and if you pay attention you can solve the mystery. I think on that one I solved the technical problems of a 15-page detective tale, and delivered a pretty good story at the same time. As a longer work, I think ‘Venom,’ from Legends of the Dark Knight worked very well. ‘Birth of the Demon,’ the Graphic novel I did with Norm Breyfogle, is also one of my favorites, but it never sold particularly well.

Does it ever bother you that a creative success may not necessarily translate into a financial one?
Sometimes. You can never predict it ahead of time. The perceived quality of a work in the end may have no bearing on its commercial success. Bu that’s just the nature of most popular art forms. Good novels go unread; good movies unseen. It’s frustrating, because I know that the kinds of things that have made me the most money are a long, long way from my best work. So in that sense, you sort of feel like a fraud. Of course, the whole collector-speculator explosion really skewed the whole economics of the entire comic book business. Fortunately, at least the speculator factor in that equation appears to be dead. I heard that the last three QVC shows actually lost money.

Did you appear in any of those?
No, that was very much against company policy for DC editors. They offered me a great deal of money to do it, but Paul Levitz feels that it’s not a great idea for a DC editor, and I don’t disagree. If nothing else, you could be put into the awkward position of appearing to endorse a competitors product, or coming across a churl.
Right now, the business is in a re-trenching mode. But when the dust finally settles, were going to be left with readers who enjoy comics as entertainment, and not as commodities. Ultimately, that is going to be very good for the long-term health of the comic book business.