Comic Talk Magazine
August 1993
Issue #7
What can you tell me about whatās going to happen in Batman #500?
The only thing that Iām free to talk about is that Batman gets a new costume. Itās the first real change in 54 years. They added the yellow oval back in the ā60ās. That was the only modification the costume had over time. Stuff like the length of the ears and the length of the cape, I tend to leave up to the artists on the theory that Batman has many costumes for various occasions. The new costume will be a result of a major upheaval in the storyline.
Right now, were about a third of the way through āBatman: Knightfall.ā Batman #500 concludes āKnightfallā and begins āKnightquest.ā Out of these will come Catwoman and Robin ongoing series. They will spin directly out of the stunts weāre doing.
Is there a practical reason Batman is getting a new costume?
Yeah, itās part of the storyline. This is a stunt thatās being driven by the story. The Superman thing was done largely the same way. That makes me very happy since I figured about three years ago that what I basically am is a storyteller. The new costume is motivated by the storyline rather than motivated by, āGee, letās put a new costume on Batman and see what happens.ā
It probably wonāt be the last. This one probably wonāt be frozen in time as long as the other. āKnightquestā will then branch off into some other books. The story will take two separate lines involving two separate sets of characters. Some of which will run in Batman and Detective Comics, some of which will run in issues #5 and #6 of Justice League Task Force. It will also appear in Shadow of the Bat in, I think issues #19, #20, and #21 and will wrap up in Legends of the Dark Knight. That will be one part of the storyline.
Theyāll be parallel plots. While theyāll occasionally touch on each other, weāre trying to put this thing together carefully so that we can play fair with people who may not have complete access to all comics or may not be able to afford to buy a dozen comics.
The storylines will be called āKnightquest: The Crusade,ā and āKnightquest: The Search.ā If you follow āThe Search,ā you wonāt necessarily have to follow āThe Crusade,ā and vice versa. However, to get the whole picture, the whole epic story weāre spinning, you should read both. But they will be self-contained enough so that youāll get your moneyās worth if you donāt.
How long will these stories run?
Approximately ten months.
Thatās a long time.
Yeah, they will segue right into next yearās annuals.
What can you tell us about the Catwoman and Robin series?
Catwoman #1 comes out at the same time as Batman #498, and Robin #1 comes out September ā93 with Batman #501. In the case of Catwoman, the story spins out of Knightfall. In the case of Robin, Knightquest. But again, you donāt have to read everything in these storylines to understand. What motivated catwoman to go out on her first solo adventure is something that happens in Knightfall, but itās explained in the first issue. If youāve ever heard of Batman, or Robin or Knightfall or anything, youāll still be able to read Catwoman #1 as a complete story.
Is Catwoman going to be a hero or a villain?
Weāre not going to soften her a whole lot. The cover copy I wrote is, āWhen sheās bad, sheās very, very bad.ā I think that will be the tagline for the story. She has never been a black, unregenerate villain like The Joker and The Penguin. Sheās been a thief and a professional criminal with her own rigid ethic, so you better not cross her.
But on the other hand, she wonāt go out of her way to hurt somebody. She wouldnāt hurt anybody at all unless she was strongly motivatedā¦unless someone significantly interfered with her life. Itās going to be a very glamorous book with Jim Balent doing the art and Jo Duffy scripting. Itāll have something of James Bond and of The Saint. And, of course, a lot of Batman. Weāll be taking her all over the world, which may give Jo Duffy a lot of good travel deductions.
Will Catwoman be pursued by any official agency?
Iām sure thatāll happen from time to time. Weāve toyed with the idea of giving her an adversary apart from Batman who would be an ongoing character in the series. Itās a little too early to dea with that because the first three issues will constitute one story. That will pretty much be Catwoman doing something she feels she has to do. It will take her from Gotham City to Santa Prisca and probably to Europe after that.
What about Robin?
With Batman #501, tensions in the Batcave come to the point where Robin feels he has to leave and go out on his own. The first stories will deal with that break. Weāll follow him off on his own adventures. Chuck Dixon has been quietly building his own rogues gallery for three years now, so weāll have no trouble doing it.
Somewhere down the line, we will probably reintegrate the two books. But for a while, Robin will be solo, not dealing in any way with Batman or Alfredā¦maybe dealing with Harold a little bit.
When you say reintegrate, do you mean Batman will appear with Robin in Robin?
Robin will start appearing in Batman, Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat. It wonāt happen for a while. Weāll want to give the kid his own identity. Heās cutting the chord and establishing himself as a solid character on his own.
Catwoman also. We think that theyāre strong enough characters that they donāt need Batman to be interesting. I think that my creative team did an astonishing job on Robin, rebuilding the character from the ground up. Heās more popular now then heās ever been.
Do you have an artist for Robin?
Yeah, Tom Grummett.
At the time of this interview, weāre about a third through Knightfall and it seems to be getting more and more popularā¦
Yeah, weāve gone back to press with all of the books that are in the series so far. Weāre bringing out the Sword of Azrael paperback a month earlier than we had originally anticipated. Itās had a much larger print run then I have ever seen for this kind of thing. That really is an integral part of the new series.
Do you think that Batman #500 will get as much attention as the death and return of Superman?
I can never predict those things. Already, I am surprised. We-sixteen months ago when we first thought of this-anticipated a lot of reader reaction, but I didnāt anticipate as much as weāre getting. Weāre fairly early into it. I also didnāt know about The Death of Superman when I put this underway. Mike Carlin and I were not group editors back then. We were just editors in charge of our own line of books. As long as he wasnāt using Batman and I wasnāt using Superman, there was no need for us to compare notes. By the time that Iād found out that he was doing Death of Superman, I was well into my storyline. We had already done a lot of groundwork, and a lot of setting up of what was to come later. Neither Mike nor I had known that we were both planning big, major stunts this year. I might not have done mine this year if I had known he was doing this.
There are two major characters having major storyline changes, things changing continuity that goes back half a century. It might have been too much, but itās not. The reaction so far for the Batman storyline has exceeded everything I could have anticipated. Thatās very gratifying.
Have you heard anything specific from the fans?
Iāve heard most from my students at the School for Visual Arts, lots of rumors. Iām obviously not going to confirm or deny any of them. I can say this much: No rumor Iāve heard (and there have been a dozen different versions out there) has gotten it exactly right.
What do you think about the fact that so many people have even a hint of an idea of whatās happening in Batman #500 before it comes out?
Itās fine with me because it shows that theyāre reading and that theyāre interested. We all want to tell our stories to a lot of people. We all want people to pay attention, and when that happens itās very nice.
Well, thatās exactly whatās happening. It really that doesnāt bother me that people are speculating that the rumors are true. Like I said, none of the rumors Iāve heard have been right on the money. So what it means is that my creative teams are really doing their jobs well.
How do these rumors get out?
That baffles me; I donāt know. The fan grapevine is astonishing. I think I know how they get disseminated, and thatās through computer bulletin boards.
What do you think about all of the marketing gimmicks in comics nowadays?
I think that cover enhancements and other stunts are fine if they call attention to a good story. Thatās the way we use them. Every time weāve done something like that, we have felt that we were backing it up with something that real readers buy comics for. Every reason you buy a super-hero comic; we feel we are delivering quite apart from whatever gimmicks are on the cover or in the polybag or any of that. I have no quarrel with those kinds of things provided they are used to call attention to something that you think is worth the attention. For their own sakeā¦Iād have to question that.
How about the Robin mini-series? As good as any one issue was, wouldnāt you hope that the latest issue of Detective Comics is just as good? But only on anniversary issues are the enhancements used.
Well, Sure, we try to hit a high standard of storytelling every time out. Thatās what we do, but some stories are, by their own nature, events. Thatās when it seems to be appropriate to use a gimmick.
On Batman #500, weāre using an enhanced cover. Thereās a major storyline and itās only the fourth comic book to hit that number, which, in itself, is an event worth paying attention to. And then, itās the last of the Jim Aparo Batman and the first of Mike Manleyās, so thereās a major change in creative personnel.
With the Robin thing, each of them was a strong story. Each of them helped solidify and reshape a character that had been in existence since 1940. We thought if what you like is pulp action and adventure with real characterization, thatās what weāre delivering. Hence I had no objection when other people in the organization suggested enhanced covers. Each of them, I would argue, was an event.
You mentioned an artistic change in Batman #500?
Yeah, half of Batman #500 will be done by Jim Aparo. At a natural break in the story, Mike Manley will take over the pencils.
Is Jim Aparo gone for good?
Not for good, heās going to be doing Green Arrow for Scott Peterson and heāll do occasional Batman projects. In fact, Iām going to be giving him a script either today or tomorrow after I get around to looking at it and doing whatever minor editing is necessary. Itās a Batman story; itāll probably appear sometime in the next year. He is one of the quintessential Batman artists. I would not like to think that I would not be working with him again. I will look for projects that we can do together.
Is the personnel in Detective Comics lined up now?
Yeah, Iām not really able to talk about it because I donāt edit it. Iād much rather you talk to Scott Peterson about whatās going on in Detective Comics.
Does that mean that the crossovers between Batman and Detective Comics are going to stop? Will they still have the close continuity that they have always had?
Itās going to be, for a while, a very very tightly integrated continuity. Then after that, weāll revert to maybe a slightly tighter version of what weāve been doing lately.
We have been accused of not doing continuity between our books in print and Iāve never gotten around to replying to that. I would argue that itās absolutely not true. For about three years, weāve been doing the kind of continuity where, at the end of the year-if you want to sit down and bother to make a timeline, everything will fit. Except for the things that we specifically label as being outside of continuity, which includes some of the graphic novels and some of the stories occurring in Legends of the Dark Knight.
Itās just that I havenāt done the thing like Mike has done with Superman-where a story ends in Action Comics and ten seconds later in comic book time, it picks up in one of his other titles.
But all of the major events-the death of Robinās mother, introduction of Harold, introduction of Jean Paul; they havenāt been simultaneous. Itās a different kind of continuity, but I would argue that itās no less integrated. Itās just structured differently.
I do that for practical reasons and some for aesthetic ones. I hire people who are strong storytellers; itās one of my criteria. I want to give them as much autonomy as possible. Also, to really do that, youāve got to get everybody together in a group a lot, and one of my writers lives sixty miles outside of London. We do get together about three or four times a year, but we canāt do it every month. However, I do think that weāve achieved as tight a continuity as anyone could want. Iāve got it on my computer as we speak. A timeline. I can tell you by looking at this computer screen when any one thing happens and how it is reflected in the other books.
Since weāre talking about continuity, how about the concern that fans have about Batman appearing in Justice League and guest-starring in something like Starman or Black Condor where it has no relevance to Batman or Detective Comics?
In Justice League, no comment. The othersā¦Usually those guys show me this stuff and if they have Batman doing something he wouldnāt normally do, I change it or ask that it be changed. We could probably fit that into continuity. Those are never appearances that in comic book time, take weeks; itās usually like one day or one afternoon or a one-night appearance. We can show that it happened, like on a Monday Batman got done fighting the Joker, on Tuesday heās with Black Condor, and on Wednesday a Penguin story started. Something like that.
Theyāre not in our continuity, but they donāt contradict it. Whatās important is that the characterizations are consistent.
In the old days at DC, editor A and editor B both did Batman. They did radically different versions where only the costume was the same and some of the props. Thatās one of the things that weāve managed to eliminate. Anything that involves continuity with Batman has to be okayed by me. Any borrowing of Batman or any of my cast of characters I have to okay. I tend not to be too stingy about it because Batman is usually an enhancement to any story he appears in.
Though he enhances the stories heās in, donāt you think those appearances are a liability to him because they undermine his mysterious persona?
Well, in recent years, I did manage to keep him from being a daylight character. Except in a couple instances in Superman where I thought the story justified the daylight appearance. But weāve tried to maintain the mysterious image.
In the old days, Batman would walk down a city street on a bright sunny day waving to people. I almost always insist that if he appears with other people or the characters are in a crowd scene, heās in a shadow. Unless the story absolutely demands that he step into the light to save somebodyās life or something like that, he does remain a shadowy figure.
The other part of the answer would be that I think Batman is an important part of the DC Universe, despite the fact that he is much more independent than most of our heroes. For him to remain an integral part of the DC Universe, he does have to interact with other characters from time to time.
So why not let him be a member of the Justice League?
I had him written out of the Justice League because he is essentially a loner. Heās not a character who would be interested in working with a lot of other people.
Heās also not too interested in going outside of Gotham City. Heās the cityās guardian angel. In our current storyline, the Wayne fortune is based on Gotham real estate. Heās really in and out of that place.
I will cop out on early Justice League stories. In recent times, very, very often Batman has not been used in a Justice League story and Iāve suggested some alternative character. Sometimes the alternative character can be Robin, whom I donāt perceive as anywhere near as standoffish or as much of a loner as Batman.
Let me ask you something about the characters. Would you say that Batman has to be Bruce Wayne since Robin obviously doesnāt have to be Dick Grayson or even Jason Todd?
I donāt know. Good question. Batman is as much as anything, an archetype. Part of what the āElseworldsā stories are about is it in a different context. I donāt know, thatās an interesting question.
How would you compare the methods of Batman, Robin, Catwoman, and Azrael?
Catwoman and Azrael are certainly lacking the element of compassion. Itā not brought center stage very much in Batman, but itās always there in an unstated way.
Robinās modus operandi is very close to Batmanās because he is, in a way, Batmanās creature. I would say he is a lot more technologically oriented and a lot more sociable. Batman is not necessarily someone you would want to hang around with if he existed. I think anybody I know would be happy to spend an evening with Tim Drake. Heās a much lighter character. Heās much friendlier.
Catwoman is capable of utter ruthlessness if you get in her way. If her own personal code of ethics demands retribution, she will deal with you harshly.
Jean Paul, Azrael is still, to some degree an unknown entity. Because part of his character we will explore I would guess over the next several years is that heās been brainwashed and he does not know who he is. In a way, heās like The Question. He knows what his name is, who his father was, but he has no idea whatās at the core of his personality. What weāve seen so far as is that he can be a very hard edged guy indeed. He does not have as many scruples as batman, or Bruce.
Youāve mentioned that Batmanās compassion isnāt seen very frequently, but I actually think that we see it quite often. Where does his mercy come from? He doesnāt have much reason to have any since he saw his parents killed right before his eyes.
Itās a yin/yang thing, Darwin. Itās the other side of the coin to his mission to stamp out crime. It all stems from that traumatic childhood experience which involved a couple of horrific and unwarranted deaths. At the same time that he has this burning passion for justice, he also believes that human life is sacred and that human beings suffer because of injustice. The compassion and the sense that human life is sacred those are really integral to the character. Theyāre as important to the characterization as all the other stuff-the brilliant detective work, the acrobatics. And underlying all of that, the mission is self-imposed.
Of course, Iāve explained this probably a hundred times in the past eight years. Batman is not crazy. Heās not driven. Heās certainly not psychotic and no more neurotic than the rest of us, because he understands what heās doing. Heās in control of it. Heās made a choice and the choice is, āokay, this is probably the best I can do with my life. Itās certainly something that I am uniquely qualified to do. Nobody else on the planet has this combination of traits and skills and so on.ā
Theoretically, he could make the choice to stop doing it, whereas if he were psychotic, he wouldnāt have that option. I think that thereās a hell of a difference between psychosis and obsession. He may be obsessed, but heās certainly not crazy.
Do you think that Batmanās commitment to working within the system and being merciless effects his effectiveness?
Yeah, if these fictional worlds were real, probably The Shadow would have been a more effective crime fighter then Batman. Heās not exactly in the system, itās just that he does not violate it. He doesnāt work in it, but he doesnāt destroy it either.
Iād say that if The Shadow existed, heād have to be a wanted fugitive. Itās like the Guardian Angels here in New York. They are obviously a force for good and they probably prevent a lot of subway crimes. Yet theyāre mistrusted by the establishment because theyāre not in the establishment and donāt exactly play by the rules.
Well, Batman is a guardian angel times a hundred. Most cops on the beat donāt trust him and certainly not most police officials. Then there would be a few who would say, āYeah, heās helping us, heās a good guy.ā And poor Gordon, caught in the middle, right on the fence.
Another concept that I havenāt been too successful in communicating to our audience: Does Gordon now who Batman is? If so, why doesnāt he do something about it, and if not, why not? Again, I think itās a choice. Iām very big on existential choices.
Heās a very smart cop and heās had more contact with Batman than anybody, so he could figure it out. He chooses not to. I think that that was a misunderstood part of Frank Millerās Batman: Year One. Yeah, he could have looked up on that bridge and he could have seen who was riding that motorcycle. He chose not to. He chose to blur his vision because itās better for him not to know.
Even if he suspects, itās better for him not to know. If he knew, it would have to change his behavior. That would ruin something that is very important to him both personally and professionally. Basically, heās got a good thing going and he doesnāt want to mess with it.
How do most of the people in Gotham City feel about Batman? Do they have an underlying fear of suspicion of him, or are they grateful that heās around to go head-to-head with guys like The Joker?
Both. If I were a citizen in Gotham City, I donā think I would want to hang around with Batman. I donāt think I would have anything to talk to him about. I think politically we are pretty far apart. On the other hand, if I was walking home alone from the subway at 3AM, Iād be very happy to have him around. Itās the same way that a lot of people feel about law enforcement in general. They donāt like cops per se, but theyāre very glad to see the cop walking down their block after dark.
The character is evolving. All comic book characters that last evolve to some degree. Heās evolving more into a nighttime character. That does not necessarily equate to grim-and-gritty and more violent, but darker. Very gradually, weāre taking him out of situations where heās on television, for example.
Itās a creative decision. He would go a long way to avoid being in front of a television camera. So there are probably some citizens in Gotham who donāt know that he exists or are not sure. Probably, most of them donāt even know what they think about.
Weāre not completely consistent with this because, as I said, itās a process. One of the great secrets of editing this stuff is to allow the process to happen and not make changes for their own sake. If you see a tendency and it seems right, then let it step back and occur.
What kind of story do you prefer –Ā the kind that Jim Starlin did where Batman is the only supernatural force and the crime is like what we read in the paper, or the oneās like Alan Grantās where you have a grandiose villain with a nickname and a gimmick to match his personality?
One of the things that attracted me to the character as a writer years and years ago was that heās protean enough that you can tell a lot of different kinds of stories. With most super-heroes, the range of story you can tell is really pretty limited.
With Batman, you can do everything fromā¦well, one shouldnāt use the word ārealistic,ā butā¦say, āmagic realismā in the sense that South American novelists use it. You can do those kinds of stories or you can do the flamboyant super-villain kinds of stories.
The character, as we define him, will accommodate both, so I donāt necessarily have a preference. I can qualify that by saying grotesque villains, I think, are an essential part of the appeal. And as long as Iām driving this particular bus, there will always be stories about characters like The Joker, and the Penguin and so on.
The other is an occasional change of pace, sure. As an even more occasional change of pace, stories might deal with supernatural things that go bump in the night. We overdid those a couple of years back. I think they should be once or twice a year. A change of pace is not the norm.
Essentially, what the character is about is humanity. Itās about human perfectibility. Another thing that seems to me integral to Batman as he has evolved is the idea that he is a detective. He uses his brains as much as he uses his muscle.
Itās just that since a guy sitting there is not dramatic, sometimes that happens off stage. Though occasionally, we put it on stage to remind people that itās more than a guy crashing through a skylight.
Weāve seen many interpretations of Batmanās origin. Not in the inspiration to become Batman, but the process afterward. Taking up with different trainers and so forth. Is there, in your set-up, a big story that various writers can take pieces of or can they make it up as they go along?
We have a very loose timeline. Our official Batman biography says that: From ages twelve to twenty-three, he bounced around the world picking up information. Not quite exactly sure what he was going to do with it. Knowing he was going to be some kind of crime fighter. Sometimes as Bruce Wayne, sometimes with disguises and assumed names.
He went all over the place. If he heard about an extraordinary martial artist in China, heād find a way to get into China and hang out with that guy. If he heard there was a ballistics expert who was the best in the country in Michigan, heād go find a way to go hang out with that guy. Weāve done a couple of stories where he apprentices himself out to detectives.
I would assume there are more of these stories to be told. Iāve deliberately kept it loose to accommodate any good ideas any writers have about filling in the gaps in that eleven-year period.
Are you going to be writing any Batman stories that we can look forward to?
Iām going to do a big piece of āKnightquest: The Search.ā Iāll do two stories in Justice League Task Force #s 5 and 6. Then almost immediately, Iāll jump into the three issues of Legends of the Dark Knight arc that will kind of wrap up that storyline. Iāve already written Legends number 50, which will be out pretty soon. Thatās āJoker: Year One.ā
Somewhere down the line, Nick Giordano and I are talking about doing a series about Commissioner Gordon and Iām toying with the idea of another Azrael mini-series. Thatās about it. Thatās plenty for this year, given the fact that I do some outside writing and I teach two nights a week and I work here about forty-five to fifty hours a week.
What other non-Batman writing are you doing?
Oh, Iāve done a science fiction short story for an anthology that John Varley is editing. Iām about to do a hard-boiled detective story for an anthology that Max Collins is editing.
I co-wrote a piece with my wife on meditation for the new Superman/Batman magazine that Charlie Kochman is editing. Itās Robin instructing the Huntress on meditation. Itās something that Iāve been interested in for maybe twenty years. Itās something my wife teaches to her sixth, seventh, and eighth graders. And itās something Charlie, who has a real deep interest in martial arts, thought heād like a little piece about. Thatās probably the strangest project that Iāve done in a long time, but one of the most satisfying.
I think kids should know about that stuff. I think itās something that can keep us all sane and Marifran has a method she finds works particularly well with children.
And then thereās a possibility I may do another Batman teleplay. That depends on a lot of x-factors, among them, whether or not they need any more. The one Iāve written has not aired; thatāll be out some time next month.
Often enough, some little project or another comes along. I still like to write after all these years. When they come along, if they donāt interfere with something, I tend to say āyes.ā
Are we going to see any more of the Question?
Yeah. Yeah, I forgot about that. As soon as I can pry open a month in my schedule, Iām going to do a 56-page Question one-shot. Archie [Goodwin] already has the cover.
Iāve got some ideas, but there are about four ways we can go because, essentially with Question issue 36, we ended that big story. But there are still a number of possibilities that are built into the character. Sometime later this year, Iāll pick out one of them and work out a story and consult with Archie and then start writing it. I imagine that it wonāt be out this year, probably early next year.
Itās always a great pleasure to come back to that character. I do things that are more popular and have more readers, but I almost never do anything that is closer to what Iām really interested in.
Personally, I always thought The Question was the only logical follow-up to the Watchmen.
Thatās high praise, thank you.
Honestly, after reading the Watchmen and The Question, nothing else stands up. The book meant something to me and my brother.
The people who like it really like it. Itās just that there arenāt tens of thousands of them.
Itās been the most gratifying series Iāve ever worked on. Part of the gratification was that I got to write about stuff that concerned and interested me. The other part is that the response has been really nice, even people reading all of those books that I recommended. It astonishes me that anybody would bother to do that.
So itās a character that I like to come back to from time to time. I canāt for a number of reasons do it as a monthly anymore, but I think we can write one or two stories a year.
Detective Comics
Detective Comics
Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Batman
Batman
Detective Comics
Detective Comics
Catwoman
Batman
Batman
Catwoman
Detective Comics
Detective Comics
Detective Comics
Batman
Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Batman
Batman
Robin
Catwoman
Azrael
Batman
Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Detective Comics
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight
Robin
Catwoman
Batman
Batman: Shadow of the Bat
Detective Comics
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight
Justice League: Task Force
Justice League: Task Force
Batman – Shadow of the Bat
Batman – Shadow of the Bat
Batman – Shadow of the Bat
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight
Detective Comics
Showcase ’93
Showcase ’93
Batman
Shadow Of The Bat
Shadow Of The Bat
Shadow Of The Bat
Detective Comics
Batman
Detective Comics
Batman