knightfall tagged posts

PopMatters Interview with Waters and Cizmesjia

PopMatters
Azrael, DC’s angel of vengeance, becomes a man of peace in Waters & Cizmesjia series
Sword of Azrael’s Dan Watters & Nikola Čižmešija talk Jean-Paul Valley’s faith… and theirs
Interview by Grant DeArmitt

DC’s Jean-Paul Valley has been many things in the 30 years of his existence. He’s been an avenging angel, an Arrowverse vigilante, and a brainwashed cultist. Heck, he’s even been the G-D- Batman. But of all the mantles Azrael has taken on, he’s never been a man of peace. Until now.

In the Sword of Azrael, DC’s latest miniseries to focus on the titular character, Jean-Paul Valley has renounced his life of bloodlust and withdrawn to a remote monastery. Ahead of the comic’s first issue, PopVerse spoke to series artist Nikola Čižmešija and series writer Dan Watters about Azrael’s journey toward peace… and the violence that won’t leave him.

Popverse: Nikola, tell me about creating the monastery on Ioúdas Island, where Jean-Paul is spending his days. What inspired you? What emotions do you want the scenery to invoke in a reader?
Nikola Čižmešija: 
Our monastery in the comic was inspired by monasteries of Mount Athos in Greece. Dan shared some ideas with me and I immediately fell in love with the image of a lonely monastery on the edge of a cliff, surrounded by sea. Unfortunately, I’ve never been to Greece, but I visited some lovely islands and cities on the coastline of my country, Croatia. From what I’ve seen, they invoke a similar feeling of peace and relaxation. So that was my main inspiration, to make the readers feel the sea breeze as they were going through the pages.

You’ve definitely succeeded in doing that. Dan, Jean-Paul starts off this comic by reciting Catholic saints that have been killed in horrific ways. Why are they on his mind so much?
Dan Watters:
He’s wondering that too! Pain is a huge part of the imagery and ethos of Catholicism, and as someone who has both endured and inflicted more than his share, this is a big thing playing on his mind. Is it a path to redemption, or a cycle without meaning? Or could the latter even become the former? That’s kind of what he’s going to be grappling with over the course of this story. While hitting things with a big flaming sword.

Of course, can’t forget the sword. Speaking of Catholicism, Nikola, talk to me about utilizing Catholic imagery to tell this story. Did you or anyone you know grow up Catholic? How are you choosing what Catholic iconography makes it into the comic?
Čižmešija: I was raised in a Catholic family, so I’m no stranger to the subject [laughs]. Apart from that, a big help for coming up with the imagery was my education at college. I majored in art history, so classes like Iconography and Gothic Art and Architecture helped me convey Dan’s words into visual form. Plus, Dan was really detailed with the script, so that made it easier as well!

In that script, Dan, you bring up the Christian mystic Margery Kempe. Who is Kempe, and what does she have to do with Azrael?
Watters:
Margery Kempe was an English mystic who dictated the earliest autobiography in the English language we know of. She had visions and conversations with God – and with demons, who even tried to drive her to suicide. She’d almost certainly have been considered mentally ill in today’s world, but in hers, she became a preacher, traveled the world, and was heard – and is remembered – in a way that she certainly wouldn’t have been otherwise. The idea that she took something so potentially dark, and through faith and will transformed it into something else, is really interesting to me. I thought it’d be very interesting to Jean-Paul, too. There are definitely some elements that rhyme there with his story so far.

Nikola, since we’re on the subject of inner darkness, one of the (many) interesting things this comic does is split Jean-Paul and Azrael into different personalities. How do you convey this in how you draw the characters?
Čižmešija:
In my eyes, I see Jean-Paul and Azrael as Yin and Yang. With my take on the character, I’m trying to make Jean-Paul a gentle person. He should be smiling every time he gets a chance, but he’s also no stranger to conflict and defending people. While drawing him for the first time in our short Batman: Urban Legends run, I discovered that glasses are also a great way to act out emotions by showing and hiding the eyes. As for Azrael, he is much more aggressive and dark. So when he does come out, to me it’s like he stops being a man and becomes more of a force, an instrument of God. He becomes more firm and fiery.

Firm and fiery, I love that. Dan, we know that the “Instrument of God” side of Azrael views the world very negatively, as a thing in need of punishment. But what about the human side? How does Jean-Paul Valley view the world outside the monastery, and humanity in general?
Watters:
More than anything, Jean-Paul wants to be a good man. He hasn’t hidden himself from the world because he’s afraid of it, but because he’s afraid of himself – of Azrael – and what happens when he spirals out of control, as he has a nasty habit of doing.

Alright, I want to briefly take a step back from the story and talk about this book’s creation. Nikola, what does your collaboration with colorist Marissa Louise look like? What do Marissa’s colors bring to the book?
Čižmešija:
She’s my dancing partner! I love working with her and every new page is a joy! We talked about our inspirations and brainstormed some references to find the visual direction for this book before starting it, and I think we nailed it. I have a few notes here and there with how I imagined a certain scene but, other than that, it’s like she’s reading my mind. What do Marissa’s colors bring to the book? Magic! They complement the mood and elevate the atmosphere of the page to its highest potential.

What a lovely thing to say. Dan, on a similar note, talk to me about working with letterer Hassan Otsmane-Elhaou. What about Hass’s work elevates Sword of Azrael?
Watters:
Hass is one of the most inventive letterers in the business, something which a book like this honestly needs. There’s a lot of interplay between Azrael’s voice and Jean-Paul’s – overlapping captions, enochian symbols in balloons, all sorts of stuff – so it’s definitely a relief when writing them to know there’s someone there who will enjoy those sort of ideas, rather than drive to my house and throttle me.

[Laughs] Fair enough. Now, let’s get back to the story. Nikola, without spoiling anything, I’ll say that Azrael does not escape his past. Destiny, maybe even doom, is a big theme in this book. Would you call Jean-Paul a doomed character? And if so, how does that affect how you’re visually telling his story?
Čižmešija:
Jean-Paul is a cursed character. He never wanted to be Azrael and go down the path of murder and violence. We took a lot of inspiration from the manga Berserk, so there is that. But there is always a way to find light in the darkness. For Jean-Paul, it’s his faith and the will to be better. For this book, I started using heavier shadows compared to my previous work, in order to keep the light parts brighter and in the forefront.

I see. That’s great that you mention his faith, because this book is also largely about a crisis of faith. Dan, are you pulling from your personal experience? What about your thoughts on belief makes it into this comic?
Watters:
Maybe my personal interest, rather than experience. I honestly didn’t realize how preoccupied I was with faith until I started writing regularly, and it kept becoming a theme in my work – here with Azrael, but also in books like Coffin Bound and Lucifer. I’m interested in where faith comes from, and the things it drives us to do and create. These are the filters through which we try and make sense of our world, and find beauty and meaning in it. Catholicism is the lens my upbringing gave me to look at that through, so I tend to gravitate there in the work, too.

Very interesting. Alright, this last question is for both of you. Let’s say DC decides to greenlight an Azrael ongoing series after this miniseries concludes. What would you want it to look like? What pieces of this miniseries would you want to carry over into it?

Čižmešija:For me, it has to be the darker tone of the book. I don’t know how much I can say without spoiling anything but definitely the darker tone. Again, we took a lot of inspiration from Berserk, so struggle is a big part of it; the demon inside Jean-Paul and the demons outside. Along with the darker tone, I’d want the message of Azrael to remain; that despite his inner demons and the ‘cursed’ nature of his character, there is always a shimmer of light inside, pushing him to be a better and truer version of himself.

Watters: I enjoy the hell out of working with Nikola, so more of that, please. And there’s plenty more to be done and explored with Azrael. He occupies a unique place in the DCU; there are a lot of different facets of faith – organized and otherwise – which he can be used to explore.

Or hit with a big flaming sword, depending on which side of the bed he’s gotten up on.

Sword of Azrael (Volume 2)

Sword of Azrael (Volume 2)
Issue No. 1 – August 2022
Say Your Prayers
Jean-Paul Valley does not want to be Azrael ever again. All it has brought him is pain, violence, and misery. He has sequestered himself away at a monastery in Europe to find peace. But when a young woman who claims to have the same System programming that made Jean-Paul into Azrael arrives at the monastery, he won’t have a choice but to don his violent mantle of Azrael once more to protect her from the deadly assassins who wish her harm.

Sword of Azrael (Volume 2)
Issue No. 2 – September 2022
Title TBA
Vengeance has arrived to capture Brielle, the young woman who has come to Azrael for help, but Azrael won’t let this stand. He will fight back against Vengeance and her forces…but will he be able to keep the murderous programming of the System at bay? And is Brielle all she seems, or is she hiding secrets that could shatter Jean-Paul Valley forever? All this as Azrael’s foe the Poor Fellow pulls the strings…

Arkham City: The Order of the World

Arkham City: The Order of the World
Issue No. 1 – October 2021
Chapter 1

The Joker’s attack on Arkham Asylum left the long-standing Gotham establishment in ruin, most of the patients killed or missing, and only a handful of surviving staff—a few nurses, a gravely injured security guard, and one doctor. In the chaos of the assault, it is believed that several of the asylum’s patients escaped and scurried off into the dark nooks and crannies of Gotham City. Now, these Arkhamites walk among us, and it’s up to the Asylum’s one remaining doctor, Jocasta Joy, to round up her former patients.

Meet these Arkhamites: a woman with no face, a pyggy in search of perfection, a man who feels nothing and burns everything, a woman who must devour life to save herself, a man unfit for the waking world who looks instead for Wonderland, a body with more than one soul, a being unbound from time who lives in the present and the past, a boy who seeks the comfort of vermin, and the twisted man who sees them all for who they are. And witness the avenging angel who stalks them.

 

Arkham City: The Order of the World
Issue No. 1 – October 2021
Chapter 2
Dr. Jacosta Joy, Arkham’s last living psychiatrist, continues her descent into the Ten-Eyed Man’s world of delusion. But are his claims of ghosts and ritual purely figments of his imagination, or is there a method to his madness?
Meanwhile, Dr. Double X, a man with the ability to project his soul outside of his own body, has been taken prisoner by a very friendly couple who have discovered that his powers of astral projection can be used on others…and they are addictive. But when Azrael appears in this den of sin, will anyone be safe from his cleansing fire?

 

 

Arkham City: The Order of the World
Issue No. 1 – December 2021
Chapter 3
Solomon Grundy has lived many lives over a great many years. Now, located by Ten-Eyed Man’s strange, but nonetheless effective, methods, he leads Dr. Joy and her many-eyed friend on a tour of the hidden history of Gotham City and the madness at its core.

 

 

 

 

Arkham City: The Order of the World
Issue No. 1 – January 2021
Chapter 4
Dr. Joy is now face to face with the ghost of Amadeus Arkham-the ghost that she had assured all her patients did not exist. Now faced with overwhelming evidence that the Ten-Eyed Man’s “delusions” were anything but, she has found herself questioning everything. Meanwhile, Dr. Phosphorus and Nocturna attempt to live a “normal” life in Gotham, but the good doctor’s radioactive body may be having unforeseen side effects on their unsuspecting neighbors.

 

 

 

Arkham City: The Order of the World
Issue No. 1 – February 2021
Chapter 5
Like layers of skin peeled back by madness, Dr. Joy finally comes face to face with the absurd, gaping maw of the one true order of the world. With only the fires of Azrael and Detective Stone’s hatred lighting the way, what chance do our poor Arkhamites have at survival as they descend into that which lies beneath all things?

 

 

 

 

Arkham City: The Order of the World
Issue No. 1 – March 2022
Chapter 6
Dr. Joy has reunited with her missing patients. Now all the survivors of Arkham Asylum’s destruction are together again under one very, very nice and normal roof. But they are not alone in this strange reflection of their old home. For there is a specter with them, one of flame, flesh, and righteous fury—the angel Azrael, and he is very, very angry.

DC vs Vampires: All-Out War

DC vs Vampires: All-Out War
Issue No. 1 – July 2022
Left For Dead…But Ready for War
One of the last secret, underground human cities is facing total annihilation and its leader-John Constantine-must plan a suicide mission to assassinate a key lieutenant in the vampire empire! Against unreal odds and with an unlikely team including Booster Gold, Deathstroke, and Mary Marvel, does the Hellblazer have one more trick up his sleeve? A gritty, violent, monochromatic companion series to DC vs. Vampires!

Batman: Urban Legends

Batman: Urban Legends
Issue No. 8 – October 2021
Dark Knight of the Soul – Part 1
Azrael, the last acolyte of the Order of St. Dumas, has returned to the streets of Gotham City after serving with the Justice League in the stars. He’s convinced he’s strayed too far from his purpose, too far from his teachings, and needs to reassert himself. But he’ll be met with a city that’s changed forever, a city that will shake his faith.

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Urban Legends
Issue No. 9 – November 2021
Dark Knight of the Soul – Part 2
Dead criminals are walking the streets of Gotham City, and Azrael’s faith is shaken. Is the rapture truly upon us, and will this avenging angel be called home? Or is there a more sinister and human force at work, and what warrior has been stalking Jean-Paul Valley without him noticing? Threats to Azrael’s body and soul are here, and he’ll need more than a flaming sword to stop them.

 

 

 

 

 

Batman: Urban Legends
Issue No. 10 – December 2021
Dark Knight of the Soul – Part 3
In his return to Gotham City, Jean-Paul Valley faces off for a final time with the new villain Poor Fellow, who has a lot more to tell Jean-Paul about the legacy of Azrael than he ever knew.

Catwoman: Annual

Catwoman
2021 Annual – August 2021
I Walk Through the Valley
Father Valley is a mystery. His unusual style as a hit man, his habit of keeping a bible designated for each of his targets, his macabre and particular method of elegant savagery, his insistence on waiting until his target has reached their highest point before he strikes them down-these are all strange and enigmatic traits that have remained unexplained…until now. Bear witness to Father Valley’s past with the Order of St. Dumas, and his unexpected connection with Azrael, to learn the method to of his madness. And see, once and for all, why Catwoman should be deathly afraid of being on his hit list.

Legends of the Dark Knight (Digital)

Legends of the Dark Knight (Digital)
Issue No. 13 – June 2021
Catechism: Part 1
CATCEISM BEGINS! Batman heads to Rome to stop Ra’s Al Ghul and the Leage of Assassins from getting their hands on an ancient artifact that they want to use to exacerbate the power of the Lazarus Pits. What Batman doesn’t know is that the artifact is already under the protection of the Order of St. Dumas, specifically, AZRAEL! From the creative team of Critically Acclaimed Writer Brandon Easton and rising star artist Karl Mostert!

 

 

 

 

 

Legends of the Dark Knight (Digital)
Issue No. 14 – July 2021
Catechism: Part 2
CATECHISM FINALE! Instead of fighting each other, Batman and Azrael will need to pool their resources to stop the might of Ra’s Al Ghul and the League of Assassins from getting away with the Vessell of St. Januarius!

Tales from the Dark Multiverse: Knightfall

Tales from the Dark Multiverse – Batman: Knightfall
Issue No.1 – October 2019
Knightfall
Thirty years after Bruce Wayne was broken and failed to take back the mantle of the Bat, Jean-Paul Valley, now known as Saint Batman, has turned Gotham into the city of his dreams. In his new order, killing has become commonplace and criminals live in constant fear-all in the name of justice. But just when all seems lost, a new hope for Gotham City rises…the son of Bane! With the help of a tortured Bruce Wayne, Bane gets the help he needs to turn the tables in the Batcave, only to be double-crossed by Wayne himself in a plan years in the making!

Screenrant Interview with Scott Snyder & Kyle Higgins

Screenrant
Tales from the Dark Universe: Knightfall Writers Finally Break Batman
October 16th, 2019

An Interview with Scott Snyder & Kyle Higgins
Interview by Andrew Dyce

When DC’s Metal introduced readers to the Dark Multiverse, it was obvious the concept had far too much potential for just a single series. Now that roiling sea of alternate realities too violent, too grim, too hopeless to ever survive is being given its own line prestige one-shots. These standalone stories ask the same question: what if a pivotal or iconic DC storyline had turned out differently? And it’s officially begun, with the release of Tales From The Dark Multiverse: Knightfall #1.

The first ‘what if?’ nightmare brings fans back to the story that saw Batman broken by Bane, with Azrael (Jean-Paul Valley) taking up the cowl in his place–before Bruce Wayne returned to put an end to his brutal reign. Bruce defeated Azrael, saving Gotham and sending Valley on his own mission of redemption… but what if he hadn’t? The answer to that question is delivered in Tales From The Dark Multiverse: Knightfall #1 from writers Scott Snyder (Batman: Last Knight on Earth) and Kyle Higgins (Power Rangers: Shattered Grid), and artist Javi Fernandez (Justice League). A vision of Gotham thirty years in the future, when Azrael–sorry, ‘Saint Batman’ rules with gleaming cross and flaming sword, and the most unlikely hero returns to free the city from his tyranny. Screen Rant had the chance to speak with both Snyder and Higgins about how this alternate Knightfall embodies the spirit of the Tales From The Dark Multiverse stories still to come, along with some “giant” events coming in 2020.

With Batman: Last Knight on Earth and Nightwing: The New Order under your belts, neither of you are strangers to hypothetical nightmare realities of the DC Universe. But how did Knightfall, and the question ‘what would Gotham have become if Azrael had won?’ make it onto the shortlist?

Kyle Higgins: The whole initiative really started with Alex Antone, an editor at DC, who started putting together–off of Scott’s awesome work in Metal, and the creation of the Dark Multiverse–this idea of, ‘would there be any interest in exploring some of the other worlds?’ Then from there it became a question of which other worlds? Which stories made the most sense to dive into? I think for Scott and myself both, Knightfall is one of those iconic stories from an earlier generation of Batman that definitely influenced me growing up. So the opportunity to dive in there and see what that might look like through the lens of a broken world, and had Bruce never actually returned to the mantle, what that might look like. Especially based on the idea of who Jean-Paul Valley was at that time, and how mentally ill-equipped he was for the mantle, and that role. It definitely felt like all the great makings to build out a pretty killer new character, and a ‘what if’ scenario, for lack of a better descriptor.

Scott Snyder: For me, I think Knightfall is one of the stories that really haunted me as a kid. Even the first time I read it. I really felt Bruce broken, and really felt he might not get back up. So there was always a question of massive possibility, and there is a real sort of uncertainty around it for me, just as a reader. I remember I genuinely believed he might not come back this time. So the idea of the Dark Multiverse, when we created it for Metal based on all our greatest hopes and fears are material and sort of bubble up into worlds all their own. It felt like a perfect starting place for Tales of the Dark Multiverse series. To go back to one of the stories that felt like it genuinely could have ended a different way, and take it to someplace really imaginative and dark. And then just give Kyle and Javi credit, I just helped a little bit in the plotting. All the great stuff in there from the psychology and the design of Son of Bane, to the way Azrael appears as this kind of broken king. That was all really their doing. So I was just happy to be a part of it and see it become something even more than I hoped it would be.

KH: It was a really cool, exciting opportunity. Because I really started my career writing monthly comics with Scott, with Gates of Gotham together back in 2010, 2011. Then leading into the New 52 with him and Greg [Capullo] on Batman, and then Eddy Barrows and I doing Nightwing, and trading off arcs and certain Court of Owls reveals and things like that. It was cool to kind of slip back into that dynamic here. It had been a few years but I think, not to put words into Scott’s mouth or anything, but it just felt comfortable. Like talking to an old friend again, breaking stories and building it out. So for me it was also a nice return to the DCU after spending the last couple of years in Power Rangers world… where I also built out some authoritarian, broken kings. I’m trying to keep it on brand.

Readers of Flash Forward are going to be familiar with Tempus Fuginaut, but a lot of people might pick up this one-shot and feel like they’ve missed an important story already being told. How much do they need to know?

SS: What I always say is we try to construct things that don’t require you to read beyond the issue itself. So hopefully even if you don’t know who Tempus is, you can get a sense from this and not feel in any way lost. We’re hoping that’s sufficient. But I always say, one of the things that we’re proudest of right now at DC is that we’re trying really hard to build one connected universe. The stuff that we started in Metal in 2017 really comes to a head this year in Justice League, as the story is ramping up to the end now. And more in Batman/Superman with what Josh [Williamson] is building, and what James [Tynion] is going to build in Batman, and in Hell Arisen at the end of Year of the Villain. It’s all connected. The hope is that you’ll read it and won’t feel left out at all by seeing Tempus in there. But you’ll be able to go read Flash Forward, you’ll be able to go read whatever else to get a bigger picture of this expansive tapestry, this immersive, giant soap opera we’re telling that’s going to end in something really huge in 2020.

Batman fans are almost guaranteed to be at least a little familiar with Azrael and Jean-Paul Valley, but for those who haven’t read Knightfall in years, what was it about Azrael that informed the Batman he would become, and the mission he would take?

KH: Well I think there’s two components to that. The first is purely from a kind of, ‘hey, what would that look like?’ standpoint of logistics. It was a lot of fun to take this character and see the longer he was Batman, the more of his authoritarian tendencies started to come to life. Then just before Bruce came back in the original story, he straight-up killed somebody. So extrapolating from that, ‘what might he look like had he defeated Bruce when Bruce came back to try to reclaim the mantle?’ And with the increased level of influence that the St. Dumas programming was starting to take in Jean-Paul Valley. How would that manifest in his leadership? Particularly as he is left to his own devices, and unopposed. So from a world-building standpoint that created a lot of really interesting questions and possibilities.

From a character standpoint though, one of the things that interested Scott and I the most was that this is a guy who knows deep down he was the wrong choice. I think there is a massive inferiority complex there. So as you see in the series, his relationship with broken Bruce Wayne is really the crux of this story, and of this world, and of his decision-making. I think there’s probably a part of me that remembers that era and thinking, ‘why didn’t Bruce call Dick to become Batman?’ Then there was the whole prodigal son storyline that came after that, where Dick did become Batman and addressed some of those choices Bruce made. I think Jean-Paul Valley would definitely feel that, and know that he’s basically another man’s stand-in. I think if they don’t have a solid enough foundation, that can drive somebody mad. That was one of the things that really attracted us to this, and building out what this version of Batman might look like, given where his insecurities and fears in this Dark Multiverse world would really be rooted.

I expected a dark vision of the future, and a pull no punches story, based on the Dark Multiverse one shots from Dark Nights: Metal, but… boy this goes to some incredibly unexpected places very, very quickly. Was that Horror part of the initial idea, or did that line of what would be too outrageous only get drawn once you started building out the story?

SS: I think it was a fun balance. On the one hand we didn’t want it to be a straight-up ‘what if’, or show what happened right in the days after. Because it almost felt like that would be too predictable, and too familiar. We wanted to really play with the idea that it’s been a long time since Knightfall came out, so we wanted to take you to a world that would reflect that. Not just, ‘what would have Gotham become in the immediate aftermath?’ Which again is something you can imagine right off the bat. I think having Knightfall take you someplace a little bit more speculative, and more surprising. And it would give us room to create a more inventive extension of some aspect of that story. Like with the Son of Bane. Take us further, really show Bruce in a way we’ve never shown him before, take him to a darker place.

The world-building is what attracted us to taking it a little bit further down the road. I think the fun of this series–and I hope people will pick up the rest of it as well, with the other classic DC stories imagined in darker iterations–they allow you to revisit some of your favorite work, but do so in a way that opens up completely new worlds. Really explore the core aspects of those stories while staying true to what those stories were about, and what Batman is about for this one, what Superman is about for The Death of Superman. Trying to say something important about the heroes in the context of the stories they were revisiting. But do it in a way that allows us to really flex these muscles creatively, and create characters that you’ve never seen before.

I mentioned Tempus Fuginaut earlier, and not to get into spoilers, but Tempus puts this Dark Multiverse tale into the context of a coming “crisis.” That word isn’t used lightly, so how much should fans read into that?

SS: Yeah… I think they should read a lot into it! These books are not meant to be–we don’t want to mislabel them, or position them in any kind of false way as a ‘prelude’ to a giant Crisis or anything like that. But what they speak to in terms of something coming, I think it’s been a drum beat that you’ll see, again, across the DCU. Both in Year of the Villain and Hell Arisen’s ending, and Batman, and Justice League, and a lot of the things that were doing in the whole line. We are planning something really big, and a giant story. Greg and I are really excited about it. And without sort of spoiling anything about it, I can just say we wanted to be able to read everything independently and enjoy it, and then at the same time feel like it will all be rewarded. My motto for 2020 is, and this is a piece in what we’re building to, is that everything matters. The idea that we want you to feel like everything you’ve read will be rewarded. There’s nothing that you’ve read, whether it goes all the way back to Metal, whether it’s Flash Forward, whether it’s Leviathan or Doomsday Clock, that isn’t revisited in a way that fits into a larger plan or a larger tapestry. We’re trying really hard to make something connected and fun and completely enveloping in that regard, that’s cumulative.

Because one of the fun things that… I think the Marvel Cinematic Universe is the first time I’ve seen it done outside of comics, but at its core, one of the few things that comics has that other mediums generally don’t–save that one or two examples–is their connectivity. You can immerse yourself in a world where these superheroes coexist, and the stories come together once in awhile to make something huge and amazing. That was always a great joy for me, as a kid especially, feeling the payoff and being like, ‘oh wow, this is all part of one thing!’ Or, ‘oh that’s right, that story happened over here, and this hero is talking about it because it affected him in a way I didn’t expect!’ All of that stuff to me is part of the joy of comics. I think it’s important to remember that in a world where everything is immediate, and total consumption of singular mythology–everyone binges one show or one thing and it’s done–comics go on, they continue. And the fun of it is living in that huge, immersive world.

So this is one giant story leading to something huge, and every part of it is relevant in that regard. We want you to feel like you can buy in as much or as little as you want, and enjoy whatever aspects of this you choose.

For you Kyle, how does it feel to create the most disturbing version of Batman in easily the last decade? Is this a case of the student becoming the master?

It’s pretty cool. Well, I don’t know if it’s the most disturbing of the last 10 years because you haven’t seen what’s coming next. But I also would say that it’s rare in life that we ever get to revisit eras that are ostensibly over. And for me, like I said, to come back to work with Scott again, to work on something like this where I’m able to come back and show what I’ve been doing for the last 5 years–especially all the world-building I did in Power Rangers–it was really really cool and gratifying. I feel very honored and lucky to have the trust of not only editorial, but Scott as well. I know how hard it can be sometimes to let people come in and play in your world– like I said, I literally just spent all of last year doing that with Shattered Grid, and running all of that–so I totally recognize that.

It’s very special to me to be able to come back and work on this. So hopefully people pick it up, and dig what we’re exploring here. And stick around for not only the rest of Dark Multiverse, but as Scott eluded to, all of the big things that are coming in 2020.

CBR Interview with Kyle Higgins

CBR
Dark Multiverse: Knightfall’s Kyle Higgins Talks Batman and a New Crisis
October 15th, 2019

An Interview with Kyle Higgins
Interview by L.D. Nolan

Running from 1993 until 1994, “Knightfall” remains one of the the most iconic tales in Batman’s long history. After sustaining a backbreaking injury at the hands of Bane, Bruce Wayne gives up the mantle of Batman to Jean-Paul Valley/Azrael for a time. However, Valley proves too brutal. Wayne eventually has to return and defeat his former protege in order to protect others and once again become the Dark Knight. However, Scott Snyder, Kyle Higgins and Javier Fernandez’s Tales from the Dark Multiverse: Batman — Knightfall #1 imagines a world in which Valley beat Wayne and remained Batman.

Announced earlier this year, Tales from the Dark Multiverse is a set of one-shots set in the worst-case-scenario universe first introduced during the Dark Nights: Metal event. The book picks up 30 years after Wayne fails to take his mantle back from Azrael and explores the dystopian world resulting from such a cataclysmic change, as well as the new Batman’s extreme methods.

CBR caught up with co-writer, Kyle Higgins to talk about the new “Crisis” teased in the book, why Azrael fails as Batman, writing fascism, and world-building for the newest world in the Dark Multiverse.

CBR: My first question for you is about something right towards the start of this issue in the preview that CBR ran. Tempus Fuginaut, who’s heavily involved with Flash Forward teases a new Crisis. What can you tell me about that and how it fits into these one-shots?

Kyle Higgins: I really kind of started my career at DC. I started at Marvel, but my big breaks came at DC, and those were in conjunction with Scott Snyder, working on Gates of Gotham. And then I transitioned for the New 52 to Nightwing and Scott transitioned to Batman. Anyone who remembers that era probably would remember that we often interlinked arcs. So there’s a natural fit here as to why he and I decided to do this initial one-shot to kick off all the Dark Multiverse one-shots that are forthcoming.

And that particular point that you just keyed on about the tease of a new Crisis, perhaps the biggest yet, is absolutely a component of that… I can’t say anything specific about it, but what I can say is that it’s there for a reason, and it’s not a coincidence that Scott and I did this issue together.

Azrael really struggled with being a hero when he first took over for Batman during the original “Knightfall.” Why do you feel that he fails at being Batman?

There’s kind of two components to that. The first is that he was really kind of designed and set up to fail. From a narrative standpoint, if you look at the era that that story was built during, and you look at old interviews that Denny O’Neil gave, he talks about this kind of proliferation of antiheroes. Whether it be Lobo, Punisher, Wolverine, the popularity of these antiheroes of that era is what really sparked this idea for the Bat office, which was “okay well let’s explore this and let’s show people what a Batman that kills looks like, ultimately as a cautionary tale as to why it’s so significant that the Batman as we know him, Bruce Wayne, Batman does not.” So that was kind of the initial set up for what became the “Knightfall” event in the comics.

As far as in-story reasons, I just don’t think Jean-Paul was really equipped for the task at hand. And if you look at a lot of his conditioning under the Order of St. Dumas and his background, he did the best he could with the wiring that he had. But I think that as the pressure mounted and what it means to try to be Batman in a city like Gotham, some people are kind of cut out for that and others aren’t.

I mean, you look at quarterbacks in the NFL, and the ones that come in with immense talent and are playing off of that talent purely for a period of time. They might have success early on, but eventually, there’s enough tape on them, that opposing defensive coordinators figure out how to scheme away a lot of that natural ability, and they’re forced to actually figure out how to play at a higher level within a scheme and that’s where you see careers go off the rails, or you see them rise above… I just don’t think Jean-Paul Valley had the fundamentals. He didn’t have a strong enough foundation that would have made him the type of Batman that could have risen to the challenge.

So, going off of that: your Knightfall picks up a long time after Azrael defeats Batman. Were there any stories from that time that were kind of floating around in your head that you didn’t get to tell. Maybe of successes, maybe of failures? Because as you said, he wasn’t quite equipped for that role.

To me, because of the answer I just gave, I was only interested in exploring this era that was. I think it’s in the solicit. It’s about 30 years after he became Batman. When someone’s not equipped for it, but is either enabled, or, well, I don’t want to get into how and why he was able to, in our version here within the Dark Multiverse, stay as Batman, but to me looking at what that kind of darkest timeline with a Jean-Paul Valley who does not have the right foundation and perhaps moral compass to rise to the mantle that he’s taking on… showing the extreme of that after a significant amount of time [had] passed was the best way to explore it. I wasn’t as interested in jumping in and looking at a few months after the point of divergence and what that would look like.

To me, looking at how the city would have changed, how his support structure would have changed how the very idea of Batman would have changed some 30 years later, that started getting exciting for me.

A lot of that change is that Azrael is kind of running an almost pseudo-theocracy. And in your previous work — I’m thinking specifically of Nightwing: The New Order, which dealt a lot with fascism — what draws you to these stories about authoritarians misusing their power?

Without getting political or anything, I think they’re very timely right now. I think they often make for really compelling cautionary tales. In something like Nightwing: The New Order, or even my Power Rangers work with Lord Drakkon, the idea of someone, for the greater good, doing what is necessary, but ultimately what is necessary undercuts why they got into the work in the first place, that to me is always, like I said, a fascinating kind of cautionary tale.

And in the case of Jean-Paul Valley and the setup of this story, it was pretty ripe for that exploration. Like I said, this is someone who has not equipped morally or mentally for the task at hand, and when left to his own devices, this is a story of how things can go incredibly wrong.

I guess I hadn’t really thought of that before, that I have explored some of those kind of authoritarian tendencies in past work. But, again, I do think that there’s something very — we write about what we’re afraid of. At least I do. And there are definitely things in the world that we live in right now that, again, without getting political, echo some of those fears.

How do you view Azrael’s relationship in Knightfall with the rest of the DC Universe? What’s his relationship to all the other characters who are kind of floating around. Superman? Nightwing?

I don’t want to spoil too much here, but that was something that Scott and I talked quite a bit about. What does the outside world look like? And the idea of cutting Gotham off from the rest of the world as a result of what has happened in the rest of the world… Azrael definitely believes that the ends justify the means, and that he has kept Gotham standing, and he has turned this city into a paragon of virtue that the rest of the world could only ever dream of becoming through strong moral conviction and willpower. But so much of what the rest of the world has become, you could argue, is actually a direct result of Azrael cutting Gotham off from it. So, there’s a little bit of a chicken and egg kind of question at the core of this story.

There are little hints throughout the issue as to what things look like. Whether outside of Gotham, whether it be other heroes or other threats, different types of plagues. Even just kind of the status of Lazarus Pits in the larger DC Universe. To me, that wasn’t the core of the story. And this a story with a pretty limited amount of space. I mean, larger than most one-shots, but still, to build out an entirely new status quo, you have to really kind of pick your battles as far as where you decide to focus your page real estate for world-building. So again, we kept things pretty tight on what Gotham looks like in this world. But I think eagle-eyed readers will see hints about the fate of different characters throughout.

You have worked on a lot of alternate worlds and continuities or things that give you more room for play. When you’re writing something like Tales from the Dark Multiverse, what storytelling possibilities does that open up for you?

Well, I definitely pride myself on finding the most interesting through lines within a kind of higher concept. And a lot of alternate timeline stuff really allows for that, because at their core there tends to be a point of divergence or a higher concept that, for lack of a better term, a quote unquote “elevator pitch,” right? This is a story of where it’s this but in this era, where this happened and then that naturally leads to questions. Well, how did that come about? What is this person? As you just said, what happened to Superman? What happened to these people, and then it allows for really interesting world-building opportunities.

I kind of really spend a lot of time figuring out the world- building and in the most efficient and, hopefully, emotionally resonant way. It’s kind of like a tumbler lock, where each pin is a different possibility within a concept, and you have to get them all to kind of lineup right for the lock to open. I just really enjoy that challenge. And the “what if?” of it all, to me, is always a lot of fun to play around with. You can take it to an extreme that you couldn’t in standard continuity and use that extreme and the exploration of that extreme status quo to ultimately make whatever kind of emotional or thematic point interested you in the story in the first place.

Is there anything else you’d like to add just as we finish up?

It’s always fun to come back to Gotham, and I’m really proud of the issue and really happy to be working with Scott again and hopefully people will pick it up, give it a chance. The other Tales from the Dark Multiverse stories are all very exciting. And I think this is a really cool line that’s coming up and hopefully people won’t sleep on it.